45. Tanner Yeager - Stills Photographer

Tanner Yeager is a professional stills photographer based out of Globe, Arizona, who spent his career in the motocross industry before finding his way into the music and NASCAR industries. 

Tanner has worked for clients such as Red Bull, ABC, Sony Music, Fender, The Walt Disney Company, Universal Music Group, and individuals such as Eli Tomas, Ken Roczen,  Colton Haaker, the late Kyle Busch, Jake Owen, Jelly Roll, Midland, Keith Urban, Tommy Ash, and more. 

In today's episode, Tanner dives into his story of finding photographing, cutting his teeth with INSIDERMX, transitioning from Supercross and motocross to Endurocross, how he found himself in the music and NASCAR industries, being undervalued as a creative, the frustrations with social media and the creative marketplace as a whole, mental health, and much more. 

Tanner has some wonderful insights, stories, and perspectives from his own experiences crafting images that is beneficial for anyone in the creative space to keep in mind as they navigate their career. I hope all enjoy! 

Follow Tanner Yeager on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/TANNERYEAGERPHOTO

View More of Tanner's Work: https://www.tanneryeager.com/

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Support the the Failed Experiment: https://account.venmo.com/u/kylecowling

Follow The Failed Experiment on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@_TFE

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Episode 45, the failed experiment. With Still's photographer, Tanner Yeager. Uh we've been trying to do this episode for a year and a half, two years. Um I think Tanner actually reached out to me, maybe. I'm not sure, but we had started talking quite a while ago about doing the pod having him come on the podcast, and it didn't work out. I don't know why. I think just schedules, all that stuff, the usual, uh didn't work out. But um ended up circling back and finally made it happen. And I think what is this, June that this episode's coming out? We recorded this back in February or March of this year, so several months ago. Um so with that being said, um Tanner spent time working with Kyle Busch in the NASCAR industry. Um so this was all recorded February or March of this year prior to Kyle Bush passing away. Um and after Kyle did pass away, um Tanner listened to the episode because we talk about his time working with uh the Bush race team and his time in NASCAR. So I he asked to listen to it to see what was said, and um I'm just prefacing with we didn't take anything out. He wanted to listen to it to make sure it was cool. He's cool with what was said, so um we're running with it. Um so just putting that out there. Um but if you haven't heard of Tanner, you've probably seen his work. He was in the dirt bike industry for quite uh quite a while with uh I think we're pretty sure we talk about it, but starting out with Insider MX coming up through that way. Um and his time working uh with guys like Ken Roxon and Colton Haker and photographing Motocross and then transitioning from motocross into the Endurocross side of things and s really working a lot with those guys and kind of what the differences were from Supercross Motocross to working with off-road enduro type guys, um, which I thought was pretty interesting, and then getting into his time in the music and music industry. Um and the the NASCAR industry and working in both those worlds and um just the pressures and the what the paycheck looks like versus what the scope of work is and and it not necessarily equating to being happy um and the struggles that come along with that, and just I guess into being on tour with with musicians, and you lose someone close to you, and you're just on the road and no one is checking in with you, and just how lonely it can feel, and um yeah. There's all kinds of stuff that we dive into. Uh Tanner was pretty open about his experiences, and um ultimately just trying to work with clients and brains and individuals that want to actually make things of substance and aren't just chasing an algorithm and um kind of trying to use you and abuse you type thing and get the most out of you for as little pay as possible. Um and just how he has experienced that, and that's just not what he's after anymore. And something that he actually touched on that I had ran into as well in my career was just about you work with these high-level clients or artists or athletes or whatever it may be, and there may be the small business owner that is like, Man, your work's really cool. I would love to have you do something for my small business, but they don't reach out because they don't think you can they don't think that they can afford you, um, which is something that I had run into in my career, and it's something that Tanner talks about. That the reality is like no matter how big or small your business is, if you want to work together, just reach out because more than likely you're going to figure out how to make it work so that everyone stokes. Um and to not if you're a small business that sees Tanner's work and you want to reach out but you're scared because you can't afford them, reach out because most likely Tanner's gonna be down to work with you and figure it out. Um, because he is at a point in his career where he wants to work with just good people that want to make things again of substance. So um really good episode. There's a lot here, a lot, and I feel like just as the episode goes, it just gets better and better. So thank you, Tanner. Stoked we could make this happen after a couple years of trying. Um hope everyone enjoys. And uh yeah, I think that's it as usual. Um if you haven't already, subscribe on uh Apple Podcast, Spotify, wherever you listen, leave a review, rate it. That'd be nice. A nice, a nice review helps boost this thing in the algorithm. If you want to support the podcast beyond that, for some reason, you can uh donate Venmo at Kyle Cowling, a couple bucks to uh help keep the lights on over here, or you can uh subscribe. Um the link in bio on the podcast Instagram page or in the show notes. I think there's like support the show. You can become a member for three bucks a month and you can get early access to uh episodes five days before they go live. If that's something that floats your boat and you wanna support a small DIY podcast, that's so you can help the cause. Uh what else? Instagram at underscore the failed experiment for reels and black and white portraits of all the guests, uh wish list of guests. As always, nothing has really changed. Uh Jenny Taft, Adam Censorillo, Justin Brayton, Max Anstey, uh Katie Maloney, David Kennedy, Wes Borland, others that I am forgetting. Uh but yeah. People out there know these people. And um help me connect the dots, because I think it'd be cool. And if uh you have someone you think would be good to come on the podcast uh that has not been on, or I have not mentioned, but you think they have a good story and should come on, let me know. And I'll hit them up, or connect the dots for us and we'll make it happen. Or if you for some reason think you have a good story and want to come on, sure, let's do it. Cause I've been having some of that as well. There's been some people reaching out to me that have been listening and um have shared with me their journey and would like to share on the podcast, and uh those ones are also happening too. So um yeah, I think that's everything. Probably forgetting stuff as usual, that's how it goes. Uh but yeah, hope everyone enjoys episode 45, still's photographer Tanner Yeager. Check out his work, give him a follow-follow on Instagram at Tanner Yeager Photo. And uh I think he's currently on tour right now. Uh I'm not sure with who because I don't have uh my phone in front of me, but he is on tour doing his thing with a musician photographing. But uh yeah, this is a great one. Thank you again, thank you again, Tanner, for making this happen after trying for a little while. And thanks for sharing the story and being quite real about your experiences. There's some good shit in here. So, alright, hope everyone enjoys. Let's do it, episode 45, and here we go. With these, just kind of start from the beginning where you grew up and childhood and all that, and then just kind of work our way through to where you are present day. Um don't worry about rambling or anything, like the more the the more the better. Um so I don't know a whole lot about you other than really just your work. Um and your work's obviously like very, very beautiful, and you have a very unique eye. Um where um originally where are you from?

SPEAKER_00 8:34

So I'm from a small town in Arizona called Globe, Arizona. Uh about 10,000 people. Okay. My graduating class was like maybe a hundred. Um very small. Everyone knows everybody. So I grew up just riding dirt bikes around here and kind of living the desert life doing like ranching, cowboy stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 9:03

So how um how'd you get exposed to dirt bikes?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Um I had a four-wheeler like growing up. Uh we always were camping and doing stuff like that, and one of my neighbors had like an old KX, uh probably 125, I don't know, maybe 250, but um I just remember seeing it for the first time and like hearing the two stroke and being like, Whoa, what is that? Like I wanna I wanna ride that. And uh I was probably seven, eight whenever I first saw one. Um and so that kind of sparked like I just wanted to ride two wheels, like that was kind of I loved always rode my bicycle. I started riding bicycles when I was like three, I think. I think I two or three, I got my training wheels off, and just ever since then wanted to do uh two-wheeled stuff and started racing BMX when I was eight, I think. Um and that kind that was probably what set off like my real love for it because I raced BMX until I was 16. So um oh wow. Yeah, so I raced like Connor Fields and a bunch of other guys that like Olympic medal, like Connor won the Olympic gold medal, so him he was in Vegas, and then I was down in Phoenix, so he would always uh come down to Arizona and race, and I would usually lose to him and some of the other fast guys around Arizona, but it was fun, it was always a good competition, and um, you know, kind that's kind of how I got into the dirt bike world, and you know, it it's pretty coherent, like you know, a lot of uh supercross guys rode BMX, and I knew like Jeremy McGrath and all these other guys from a young age because of their upbringing and BMX racing.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

So yeah. Did um with the BMX stuff, was that something you wanted to like turn into a career at all? Or was it just m purely like a passion thing for you?

SPEAKER_00 11:26

Uh I mean I I knew there were pros, and I think at the time, you know, this is uh I don't even know the year, probably like 2005, 2006, like early 2000s, like uh the pros, you know, you you didn't know much about them. You didn't know if they were rich, you didn't know if they were poor, like you you just knew you saw them every weekend, and it was uh, you know, they had their their sponsors and stuff like that. And I knew that that was an option once I got older. But then the Olympics came around and it got announced uh that the Olympics was BMX racing was gonna be in the Olympics. So that kind of changed a lot, I think, for a lot of us, uh taking it more seriously, and our parents probably like realizing oh well there is a future in BMX racing for our kids, so maybe we take it more seriously. But um, I think that's when the level I was probably 13, 14, I want to say somewhere like a teenager whenever that came out, and um I was pretty like skinny and smaller stature, like a lot of these guys were already like grown men basically that I was having to raise. So uh the strength part of it wasn't really there for me once I like got you know 13, 14, and then like 15, 16, I got a little bit stronger and faster, but I don't know. I Arizona is a hard place to like be like, oh, I'm able to do this as a profession because I had so many fast kids here, like all of the people that were go trying to go for the Olympics. Like, there's a guy named Corbin Shira here, uh KJ Romero, and like these guys were traveling every weekend to every race, like so it was hard to get wins against them, and I think if I were winning, like that probably I was realistic about it. I'm like, this is fun, I like where I'm at, um, and I like doing this, but I don't know if this is like if I'm good enough to be a professional, you know? So yeah, I I think just as a kid getting beat all the time, it's not really like it's it's hard to have that mindset of like, okay, like I need to win. And I never had like a strength conditioning coach or you know, a riding coach or anything like that. It was pretty much just you know the local and I I I did like some national stuff and traveled to like Illinois and Oklahoma and things like that, but yeah, it was I I would love I wanted it to be a future, but I think I was kind of realistic. And then like 16 high school, got my driver's license. Um my parents ended up getting a divorce, and that was kind of like a big determining factor of racing or not, because my my dad was always working. Um, he was a police officer, or yeah, he did police for 30 years. So he was working, and then my mom would take me, and then once they got divorced, I was like, eh, I'd rather just do normal life. Like, I think training and like you know, living that that competition every weekend, like I was driving 200 miles, 300 miles during the week to go practice, and then on the weekend we were finding whatever race was uh somewhat close and racing that. So I think I just kind of hit burnout, you know, 16, 17, and then started partying and doing the whole high school desert parties, and uh that's when I got a dirt bike too. I was like, Dad, I don't really want to race BMX. If I quit this, save us some money. How about get a dirt bike? So I got a YZ my first bike was a YZ125.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Oh, nice. What year?

SPEAKER_00 15:46

I don't remember. It had to be like, I don't know, it was it was like it was nice, but it was definitely like uh a little bit older. It wasn't a brand new one or anything. I don't remember.

SPEAKER_01 15:59

That's cool. Uh what um as a whole, what was it like for you growing up in Globe? Because I've actually driven through Globe before. Um when I was on a project, we were doing some stuff somewhere like I feel like just outside of Globe, and I had never heard of it until like driving through it.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Uh yeah, I it's interesting. Um my dad being a cop was a little interesting. Um there's a lot, it's a mixed demographic here, so um a lot of Hispanics, a lot of white, and then a lot of uh Apaches. There's an Apache reservation. So my school was mixed. Um and there's a lot of troublemakers that would, you know, come in contact with my dad. So they would try to like corner me in a bathroom and beat me up, but I luckily never got beat up. And it was just I don't know. I mean, I liked living here because it was like there's a lot of freedom to do what you want as a kid, and like I I kind of grew up in Tucson, like my grandparents lived in Tucson, so and that's where I would race a lot at. And it was just scary, kind of like you know, riding your bicycle and like you always had to worry about cars hitting you and just like different stuff, like the trails there were like the the BMX trails kind of were you know a little sketchy at times, and I think the globe is a little bit safer, um like small town vibe. So I liked living here. I always wanted to get out and like leave, and like I was always trying to talk my dad into going and getting a job somewhere else in Phoenix or something like that, but I didn't mind it. I mean, it it is like a slower pace, and um but once I started riding, like that was I I knew a lot of kids my age didn't have the ability to just get start their bike and then ride as far as they want. Like I didn't have to haul my bike anywhere, I could just ride from out my door to you know wherever I needed to go. It's there's trails everywhere. So that was that was like the the perks of it, I guess. And then you know, if the cops did catch me, they knew who my dad was, so I usually didn't get in trouble.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

Yeah. Was there ever any um thought or conversation with your dad about you going down the same career path that he did, or was that never even like on the radar for you?

SPEAKER_00 18:50

I mean, I I I would like do ride-alongs and stuff with him, like at night, go go with him and take calls and stuff, and I enjoyed it. I mean, I I understood the concept at a young age of what he did and what you know that there are bad people, and he's trying to prevent those people from hurting other people or whatever. And um I I was more inclined to the fire uh than the police. Um so the fire department was attached to the police department, and I always like would go over and sit sit on the fire trucks and play inside of them, and all the firefighters loved me, so I would just go hang out over there. I ended up doing uh fire during high school. I took some college classes, so I got my fire one, and then I was gonna get a fire, the fire two is your senior year, and that would have got me to be firefighter, but ended up having to go to an alternative uh school my senior year because I didn't have enough credits. So I wasn't able to do the college class uh to or I wasn't able to finish it, but yeah, I I don't know. I I thought I wanted to do fire, and then I we did some uh like my junior year in high school, we did some uh they like blindfold you and you go through the building and you have to like you know be with your team and follow the hose and all that, and like go through the building as if it's burning, but it wasn't really on fire, it's just kind of sim sim and the claustrophobia. Like, I I was like, I don't know if I would want to do this. Like, I think wildland firefighting was always my main thing of like what I wanted to do as a backup um structure fires, it's sketchy, there's you know a lot of smoke inhalation and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

But I I I mean I love that I have a yeah, I have a uh friend of mine, he was actually on the podcast maybe a year or so ago. He's a LA County firefighter. Um, but before that he was the truck driver for the TLD Red Bull Honda KTM team from like 2011 to 20, I don't know, sixteen or fifteen or something like that, long time. Um, and then he transitioned out of that to become a firefighter. So when I had him on the podcast about a year ago and talking about that transition and like the process of him becoming a firefighter, especially in LA County, and then like his first time being called to a structure fire and running into this burning building and can't see anything. Like it I'm just like, dude, that is so like I know that's what the job is, but it's so gnarly to like hear that f firsthand from somebody like just explaining yeah, first first call is a structure fire, an apartment complex is on fire, and it's like Several flights up and you're just running in the dark. Dude, fuck.

SPEAKER_00 22:05

So gnarly. Then you have like backdraft and you have all these like different uh like ways to open the building up to let the flames out and all that. It's it's crazy. Um But I think, you know, a lot of my friends that I rode BMX with, or I mean uh dirt bikes with, like a lot of them do it now, and I think that there's like a similar adrenaline to kind of the dirt bike world, and you know, like you there's a task at hand, it's scary. You just kind of gotta get over it and jump the jump or go in the building, you know?

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yeah, yeah, for sure. Um, I you kind of touched on it already, but for you in terms of education and school, um, was it something you enjoyed at all or not really?

SPEAKER_00 22:54

Not really. I I don't know. I like sports and stuff. Like I I did soccer and baseball a little bit, um, and that was kinda the reason why I was doing school, so like I'd push myself is so that I could play sports, and then once I got into BMX heavily I was like, you know, didn't do any school sports really, and it was mostly and I had to have good grades to be able to do it, so I tried, but yeah, I don't know. I I was always like kind of artsy, so I think the the art classes definitely stood out to me and um I had some pretty pretty crappy teachers to be honest. Like I if if I that was one thing about growing up in a small town is like our our education system was not good and um you know I I feel like I was a little short-ended on that st on that side of it where like I my eighth grade year I had to apply to get into journalism class. Like I wanted to do the school newspaper in high school, and this teacher that I knew live she lived right up the road from me and she'd see me all the time and everything. Um I asked her to write me a letter of recommendation so that I could get in, and she wrote like the worst letter of recommendation. I that was like my first like letter of denial for sure, and I was just like, why did they do that, Dad? Like, why is she so mean? Yeah, but it was like this kid is not cut out to do journalism, he's a terrible student, like blah blah blah. You know, I was just like oh my god. So I ended up still getting into journalism. Um they didn't really care what she said. I had some friends there, and uh so so that was kind of like my intro to uh cameras and stuff like that was my freshman year high school. I got into the journalism class, did like the uh paper, and then I did the media stuff. Uh like we had a broadcast every morning in our high school, so we would like talk about the news or whatever, and I would ru I helped run that, so I did that like for three or four years.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

So okay. Um that was gonna lead me into my next question, which was what like what was the moment for you that photography kind of caught your eye, and you're like, oh, this is something that would be interesting for me.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah, yeah, probably high school. Um I mean in BMX there was a guy, I've been trying to find this guy for so long. His name was Jack McDaniel, and any BMX kid knows who he is. Uh he was like the main photographer for USA or ABA BMX back in the day, and he just like kind of disappeared, but he uh he he definitely showed me that that was a job opportunity, and I remember as a kid going to nationals and like getting photos from him and being like, dang, that's a cool job. Like he gets to go to all these races, and you know, he knows everybody, everyone likes him, and he gets to just shoot photos, and uh they were really cool, they made me feel good, and I love looking at other kids like doing tricks and you know, showing style over jumps and stuff. Like he was able to get I felt like you know, that individual aspect to the situation. It was like, Oh, okay, this person has their own style, this person has their own style, and uh yeah, I'm I you know the big Canon 70 to 200 lens and all that, like that was kind of like my first time seeing that, and um yeah, I would say like he and then as soon as I did get my own camera, I messaged him right away and like was like, How do I shoot in manual? How do I shoot like you know, how do I become a photographer? So he was like one of my first mentors, too.

SPEAKER_01 27:15

Oh, that's cool. What um what was the first camera that you ended up buying?

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Uh Rebel. The Rebel XT cannon.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that thing, that thing was popular.

SPEAKER_00 27:32

Yeah, I think that was a lot of people's first uh like my mom had some film cameras and stuff, and I had shot some film. I had like an old Minolta film camera. Uh I remember like going to the zoo. I maybe developed five rolls off of it. Like there was my me and my friends went to the zoo and you know, just stupid stuff from the house, and but uh the rebel definitely was like I would take it on motocross rides with me, throw it in my backpack, and just you know, shoot my friends blowing out berms and jumping and stuff like that. And that was like yeah, the the start of one of my friends actually his mom bought the camera off of me once I sold it, and he's like one of my best friends, and he still has that camera, and he always like he'll send me like periodically send me uh Snapchats or whatever of that camera and be like, hey, look at it, still got your old camera.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Dad, that's how funny. Um for you, is there any like obviously you had the your high school um journalism class and working on the newspaper? Um, outside of that though, is there any like formal education for you with photography or photojournalism um beyond that? Or is it all mostly self-taught?

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Yeah, no, it was all self-taught. Um in like in the media class, I did a couple like photo assignments. One of them was actually kind of funny. Uh they asked to they're like hookahah was a big thing, right? Like everyone in high school smoking hookah. And so our class, like this I was only like a sophomore junior, and then our whoever was leading the class wanted to do an article of it, and they're like, Well, we need a photo, and I'm like, I mean, everyone's at my house smoking hookah every night, anyways. Like, I'm sure I can get a photo of it. So we had an 18-year-old in the yeah, he was uh a senior, but he was 18, so he could legally smoke it, and so I took a photo of him, like, and it was just the end of the the pipe, right? And it going like kind of like going in the mouth or whatever, and uh that was the front page of the newspaper, and we oh printed it like it was like a pretty cool photo, it was but it was very like like questionable, like can we do this? And our teacher was like, Yeah, like you guys have freedom of speech, like you guys can do whatever you want, and um so they end up running this whole newspaper, and our principal pulls it, and he sees it, and he's like, Absolutely not, and pulls it, doesn't let it come out, and then like people in Phoenix ended up getting like some news channels heard of that our principal was censoring us, and they were like, No, you can't censor, like they're a student newspaper, they can they like I guess there's whole thing on you know freedom with students, and uh so these like news companies come up from Phoenix and they did a whole thing on like how they were censoring us and how they couldn't do that and whatnot. And I don't think it I I I still have some of the papers and stuff, but I don't think it ever like got released again or whatever, and then um that was you know, I did a couple little photo assignments for that paper, but most of my high school stuff was final cut and video and like learning how to edit. We had a big Mac with uh you know like uh the DV cameras, like the uh like you would have it was all it was you would have to plug into the camera and get it all off, like rewind it basically, and then like play it and like I don't know, just getting like it was a lot of video stuff, and I think I was more I liked the photo side of it, and so once I got the rebel, that kind of was like okay, like I like photography and you know one frame at a time.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

Yeah, yeah. That's so wild. Do you have a copy of that paper or that that photo that caused everything still?

SPEAKER_00 32:02

Yeah, I think I have like uh I I have some stuff uh in my basement, like yeah, I think I still have it.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

If you're able to get your hands on that, to use that for a reel for Instagram. That's that's too wild. Yeah. Troublemaker. Yeah. Yeah, for real. I mean, it was I experienced that a bit in the middle of um my career. I was doing this docuseries project called Spectrum. It was all like a self-funded passion project type thing. And I watched Sean's. We had Yeah, so yeah, Sean's Sean's episode. So the episode before that was with this amateur kid from Den, I think he was from Denmark, um, and he had some things to say about Loretta Lynn's, like the the amateur national, that weren't the greatest. He had valid points, and that kind of sparked some stuff. And then the next episode was Sean's, and Sean's like melted the vital forums. Like it was a whole fucking thing, and like all the sponsors dropped them, and then they were trying to like these brands in the dirt bike industry were like trying to come after myself and my business partner and like threatening to sue us and take down the whole series, and like we were paying off riders to say bad things about the sport. Like the owner of Fast House, I I think it was him. There was someone in that world who was like, We're we're paying Sean money to make him talk bad about the sport. And I'm like, dude, I'll give you the I'll give you the unedited bra interview and where you can hear me asking the questions. I've not a single damn thing I'm asking him is to like set him up to say anything bad, let alone paying anybody off because we're making zero dollars doing this.

SPEAKER_00 33:53

It was it was wild, but in return it like I watched that as like like I remember I remember like the controversial part of that was the parents, right? And like how yeah, a lot of the parents but dude, that was going on in BMX racing, like that was a huge reason why uh I feel like I kind of got detached from BMX was like watching all these BMX dads like yell at their kids so bad. And uh you know, like when you brought that out and you said that that was one of the first times that I felt like people had publicly talked about this is borderline child abuse. Like, what are you guys doing? Like, yeah, you can push your kid and you can guide your kid, but there's a difference, like when I mean I there was this one kid I raced, and his dad was an alcoholic, always like bright red, and he would show up to the l starting gate puking or crying, and you know, this part of my brain, I knew I could beat him depending on how bad his dad beat him before the race, because he would be puking when he'd show up, and I'm like, dude, like that's messed up. Like, we should be having fun out here. We're kids.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

Absolutely agree, and it was I remember with Sean's too, like my a lot of the stuff he was saying, I would those weren't even necessarily I felt like the questions I was asking. I I would ask him honest questions, but he was just very candid and it I felt like was almost maybe a therapy session for him to just unload on some of the stuff. And at the time I was like, this is gonna be like my headspace was like, this will be like this is a good thing. Like we're talking about something that is ignored. Showing this can like maybe help make things better, but then in turn it just pissed off the whole industry and sponsors were dropping them, and I'm like, oh my god. But it also like helped gain attention for the series unintentionally because then people are like, Well, what is this all about? And then they're like watching Yeah, that baby Elsa. Yeah, okay. Um yeah. And um it in turn made people like, oh I want to check this out and uh watch it, and but then uh it helped grow into this like pretty cool thing that we were able to do three seasons of really because the powers that be were all pissed off at me or it kind of backfired in their face and worked worked out for me. But yeah, it wasn't my intention to like badmouth anybody. It was just this is the reality of the sport, you know.

SPEAKER_00 36:38

When you show polarizing things, people uh don't usually love it, especially if it's like groundbreaking and the first time that you know someone has done that, like you know, I think like with the school paper, they didn't want to they didn't want to know that kids are smoking hookah, but what we were saying wasn't you should go smoke hookahah what we were saying is this is why it's bad for you, this is the origin of it, this is the facts of it, and then all of a sudden now it's a problem. Like, what? Like we're we're informing people. There was not access, you know, the same way there is now to what is good for you and what's not good for you. We were informing people as a body, and the principal hated it. And it's just like, you know, I think that it taught me at a young age, like if you do polarizing stuff, it might be scary, but it's gonna like bring it's gonna bring like different uh I don't know, like it's good and it's bad, right? Like there could be pushback, but there's also gonna be things that you gain that you don't even know what it is yet. Like we it it that picture increased our views for what our paper was in our high school because every channel in every news channel came and did a like they came to gl uh came to Globe, talked to us about it, talked to the the kids in the uh class, like you know, it it got us more attention than than we ever had before. So it was just uh yeah. I don't know, polarizing is it's always fun. I worked for one of the most polarizing guys in NASCAR, and that was you know kind of the same thing like with him. He'd say stuff and people hated it. They would boo him every weekend, but then they still love him, like you know, he he is who he is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, and I I feel like from my experience doing all that spectrum stuff, it was on my end, yeah, I g it I guess it was polarizing, but it was for me, I guess as like a creative, it was coming from a a honest, genuine place, if that makes sense. Like I wasn't trying to just stir shit up to stir shit up, you know. It was coming from like a very authentic, sincere place of like I'm aware of what these realities are and what these athletes go through at this level to get where they are, and but it doesn't always get discussed or shown, so I would like to show that in a artistic, creative, storytelling way, but be as honest and truthful about it as possible. Um whereas I I do feel like especially nowadays, there's a lot of people that have podcasts or YouTube channels and they just say shit to say shit to like start, you know, just to be polarizing, it's not coming from a uh sincere place, if that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_00 39:46

Yeah. Yeah. No, I I agree, and I I mean that is the fun thing about you know the artistic route is that you can do it without it being like drama, right? Like it can be a storytelling piece. And I I mean, dude, your stuff always inspired me to, you know, kind of do the same thing with photo and like I in m in the motocross realm I wanted to show the behind the scenes. I don't care who wins or what you know what guys leading the race, and like my goal when I was at a supercross was go go to where everyone else is not going and get the photo that no one else is going to get. Um if it's you know a podium shot. Like I remember one of Drew Reese's photos, f one of my favorite photos from him was uh Ken Roxon, I think, and it was like a podium, it was either a dungeon Roxon, and he was behind him at the podium looking out like to the sea of photographers, and it was the back of Roxon, right, on the podium. And I'm like, what? Like that's way cooler than for some reason it speaks to me more than looking right at him, like the podium photo that everyone is getting. Like it just it's a change of perspective, you know. Yeah, that was like I saw Daisy.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

Sorry, go ahead. Um yeah, Bubby, I will. Um no, I was I was gonna say there is I would think the same same way, like being at the races, like if all the media photographer video guys are at the one spot for the first turn to get the shot, cool. I'm gonna go the complete opposite direction and be the only one over here to try and do something different. Um, and there was a small little series I did called All In, which was based on these um amateur national in Freestone, Texas. Um the kids that we would be shooting, or I was shooting for the project, if they would win their their moto or the championship for the week or whatever, like you have all the media people at the podium, I was literally I would go directly like behind them a ways away, and I would just long lens it and I would just shoot through their heads to the podium and just use them as foreground because it was like visually way more interesting than just being up at the podium looking up at whoever it was, you know. So same thing. I always try to like think about like cool, you guys are all here, but I'm gonna go over here and like try to do something different and like think outside the box a bit.

SPEAKER_00 42:28

Yeah. Yeah, I we definitely I feel like we're kind of in like the same era of like what you know uh who was around whenever we were shooting and like coming up and stuff, and I think it was cool, like there was a lot of groundbreaking stuff happening, and you know, it just took companies a while to figure out what was cool and what wasn't cool, and you know, I think companies like Fox and c you know they kind of made it cool to have a different perspective, and um yeah, I it you know having mentors like Drew uh you know kind of helped me understand like what the business side of it is and like what the side is of being creative. Like, yeah, I could go out there with a 50 or 85mm lens, but there's also a borderline of like okay, well you need the clean shots for the magazines and you need this for this, and like it's you know, there's it was the balance of being artsy and like also being on an assignment and like making sure that you have stuff that is like deliverable and um yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Yeah, absolutely. Um for you um at what point did photography start to kind of pick up and you start to realize, oh, I think

SPEAKER_00 44:00

there's something here for me that like this could turn into turn into something uh I mean pretty fast honestly um I think like once I graduated high school I uh my first job well I worked at Ace Hardware during high school that sucked I was just like it is what it is but obviously like I need to do something else so yeah um I ended up getting a job at our town is a big copper mine so we have like three different copper mines here that are owned by the biggest companies mining companies in the world and that's what everyone does here so my now you know that that's kind of the route that I would go with everyone else in my graduating class was go work at the mines and I did like six I did like six months there as a welder's helper and you know it's thirty dollars an hour or something right out of high school it's pretty good money but I'm working with guys that are I'm not gonna say every one of them but there's a lot of them that are just you know jerks and like not do it doesn't create a a a workplace that you really want to go to and that was something that I felt I wanted to either work for myself or work for a group of people that was pleasant to be around and so um yeah once I quit that I I I was like I have to try to do this photography stuff like I have the camera I I'm gonna just start taking portraits and you know advertising family photos and in a small town it's like easy to do senior photos and stuff like that like word of mouth oh Tanner takes photos why don't we just hire him take them and so you know I would do a few grand a month doing that stuff and I think that uh that was probably like 20 years old 1920 and I'm like okay like you know I I I get how to kind of make the money here I get how to deliver the photos and I'm taking good photos. Uh I ended up having I know like one of the significant memories I have of like am I gonna do this or not do this was uh was dating a girl she wanted to move to Tucson I didn't really have money to move to Tucson didn't really want to move to Tucson and she I woke up one morning she had left everything uh like took all her stuff and was just like yeah like you're never gonna do anything with your life you're just gonna stay in this town and like photography's a joke you're not gonna do anything with it and you know just kind of set me on fire of like okay we'll see and uh I remember like oh maybe like a week or two later I photographed a prom and I had like the backdrop and hired hired a couple of my friends to take the orders down and like had an order sheet and all that and I made like five or six grand like in a night just I'm like yeah okay like I wasn't expecting wasn't expecting that but I mean I had to print everyone's photos do all that stuff but at the end of the day I still profited probably like three or four grand I'm like okay that was worth it like and then um I uh I think like after that I was like trying to do some BMX racing stuff and I went and photographed for a uh a guy in BMX racing and he would do a live booth setup where you could walk up and get the photo right then and there from your moto before or whatever. Like you know there would be I would be taking the photo someone would get the memory card go print out thumbnails and they could order it. And I was like well I could do this like in rodeos like because I've never seen someone do this in a rodeo situation and like barrel racers have money uh you know most of these people are riding $20,000 fifty thousand dollar horses so um I ended up getting a computer network system all set up with like five computers and a printer and I did the same thing where I just go to local dirt bike races and rodeos and I would just sell my prints like right then and there. And I did that for I I invested like two thousand three thousand dollars in computers and like the network that would allow it all all the computers to connect and all that and I just I was so bored. I was like I I want to like because you would have to sit in one spot like I went to a dirt bike race and I just sat in one spot and took photos of every kid that went by same photo you know and I'm just like this is boring like I want to like I feel like my photos are better than that like I feel like I should be shooting for a magazine or something you know and so um that was kind of just like the evolution of it where then I was like started messaging magazines and you know I I was able to get a portfolio and like get photos right like to show like this is what I do built website all that but my main my main like deal into like supercross was uh brown dog brown dog hooked me up with my first credential and then uh Austin White uh insider MX and then I did insider MX for probably like three years four years oh wow okay so I shot with like Mike Embry and like a bunch of like we had like a cool little group of people that did stuff um I didn't do a ton of supercrosses I did a lot of like uh like Nash or uh like amateur races and stuff like that but I did do some like indie supercross and did a few other ones with Austin where I was able to be in the supercross world for a little bit that's wow that's so funny.

SPEAKER_01 50:46

So Brown Dog um I don't know that I will take all of the credit for it but I think I Brown Dog I was I think one of the main reasons why Brown Dog got into photography and like chased that whole career path because at the time he was uh he was a high school teacher at Huntington Beach High School teaching science and I think um tennis because he used to be I think he was like a professional tennis player way back when and then was a tennis tennis coach. I was like a sophomore junior in high school at the time and needed some help and we knew him just through um like riding dirt bikes and being at the track all the time and like living close to us in Huntington Beach and became friends. He ended up tutoring me for a little bit with my science class so I could get through it. And I was like really doing the photography thing. Yeah I was like doing the photography thing really hard trying to bother Don at Trans World like any opportunity to like go shoot a race or like do anything. And uh I think in turn Brown dog was like intrigued and was asking me questions and camera settings and whatnot and then it just kind of grew from there. I got a job at Trans World he went on to start his own thing where he is now um so that's that's super funny that that's how kind of your start is through him.

SPEAKER_00 52:24

How'd he find you I I was just thinking I don't really remember um must have been like Instagram or something and then I just remember like hey can I shoot Anaheim with you and he was like yeah come on out and uh I mean I might have already been working for Insider at this point and then I think I just went there to shoot with him but I remember carrying he had that 400 did you ever hear the story about how he got that 400 that's crazy someone like lent it to him no it's yeah yeah I don't believe it anyways uh so I was walking around the stadium with that lens and I remember like three people were like wow what are you compensating for big lens uh we know like you know making all these jokes at me and I'm like dude these people are weird out here like everyone just wants to talk crap to me but yeah that was like uh that's yeah I wish it was that easy to get credentials now nowadays I like try to shoot it and I I'm I don't even know where to begin it's like fell just dude it's fucking Feld is a colossal fucking joke.

SPEAKER_01 53:49

I I even remember like the in 2015 that first season of the Spectrum stuff I think episode one was with Andrew Short and I wanted to to license some footage from them of when Shorty won his 450 Supercross main event at Seattle in 2012. So I was somehow managed to track down the correct email and person that was in charge of that at Feld and they were like yeah sure that's no problem but it's gonna be $2,500 a minute for your footage with a one minute minimum. And I think what I needed total was like three minutes or so of footage. So it was going to cost like well over five thousand dollars to like have this like two minutes worth of footage from Feld and I I didn't even reply back to the dude because I was like you're f you are fucking high. Like I am not I don't even have the money first of all but the fact that that's your number 2500 bucks with a one minute minimum I was like you fucking guys are criminals. And they still are in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 54:56

Well it's like I mean I can maybe see that if you're a company that is like a like a brand right of um like a gear brand or a bike brand but like a guy that's making a documentary like it's crazy. I mean that's kind of the same music where if you try to license music it's so expensive. I have a friend that's trying to he has like the rights to make an AC DC uh or I think it's Metallica he has a documentary um he has the rights to a book to do a Metallica video and to get all of the licensing for that it was gonna be for all the music it's over like a hundred million dollars or something like it was so he has to figure out another way to get the licensing through for this music but he has like the screen like he he owns the right to do this movie but just not the rights to the music so he has to license it and I'm like oh yeah oh my gosh dude that that makes our jobs a little bit more complicated it's like we have this vision of just making this one thing but this one thing might cost us yeah it's it's so wild my next venture out of Supercross was in Durocross and I knew I kind of needed to go get a niche like find something that wasn't because I liked amateur stuff and I felt like the family oriented thing was very similar to the BMX racing um you know everyone was like at amateur dirt bike races it was a little bit more laid back than like Supercross and um and then I started shooting like works and uh some off-road stuff around Arizona and that's when I met a lot of these guys that were racing endurocross so they invited me to come out and race or uh do shoot some endurocross and that's where I met Drew Reese and ended up um shooting with him for like a year and so we did like Dirt Rider and we did a couple other magazine stuff um and some stuff for like Husqvarna and KTM and he he kind of like guided me along the way showed me what to do and then the next year he was like hey I'm out of here if you want I can recommend like my clients to you and so he essentially gave me like all all his clients and left the door open and then I uh I ended up being like the official endurocross photographer for like four years or something like that until they someone else yeah I was gonna say I remember like feeling like you were the endurocross guy for quite a while yeah I uh put probably a hundred thousand plus miles on a sprinter van and just traveled and it was fun I mean I think like looking back at it like that was probably like the best time I had in dirt bikes um you know like shooting it because they were all my friends and I would go to the races and we like the first place guy all the way through the tenth place guy were all friends you know we all go out afterwards to like a bar af on Saturday night after the race like we would just go hang out um do karaoke and all that and it was fun it was like you know that that was a good time and Pernard is just awesome I I loved working with him and like kind of seeing how he could like run something and um always did really good at like making sure photographers felt good being there and like appreciated and then um yeah I just I don't know like a lot of m the guys that I was shooting at the time like they uh they're all like retiring now. It's it's weird. It's like you know Cody Webb and like Colt like my main guy was Cody and Colton so I would shoot both of them and at the time it was kind of weird because they were like they both were butting heads of like Colton was coming in like Connor McGregor and then Cody's like this nice quiet guy and I'd have to photograph both of them and like go to both pits and like try to deal with the animosity of both of them but yeah yeah I'm I remember like they had they had quite the war rivalry for a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 59:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

It's good stuff. That was uh and Dorotros was fun. I also lived at one of the guys' houses in Phoenix for like four years and uh would go kind of on and off and um like live there and then go on the road for a few months and then move back there. But every day I'd wake up and I'd go outside and like Destri would be practicing and like Cooper and uh Taylor Robert and like all these guys so that's how I kind of like got you know in with all of them and to me it was just more fun. Like I was making just as much money as I'd or more than I'd be making at Supercross and they're all homies so yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:31

I kind of have answered it but I was gonna say like your experience at shooting Supercross versus endurocross what it was like but it sounds like it was very two very different experiences.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

Yeah yeah I didn't like I wasn't at s at too many supercrosses where I mean I've personally been to a ton of supercrosses like every year I've been to the Phoenix one since I was a kid but um shooting them I just didn't like make a lot of friends and stuff like like it wasn't I wasn't there every weekend to kind of develop these relationships and stuff and I think um it was I mean both of them were fun like I uh my f probably the coolest super cross that I gotta shoot uh was Daytona and I ended up going there with Fox and uh Belle and so I ended up working for Belle for like four or five years and like I gotta shoot Carrie Hart all the time so that was like they made the connection uh and were like hey we need you to shoot Carrie and I ended up shooting him for like three years like back to back every year they'd kind of hire me for him to go out with him and uh we go to we go to Daytona for Belle and the one guy comes up to me and he's like hey uh just want you to know like uh don't make it weird or anything but the guy cooking us dinner is Britney Spears' dad and I'm like what why are they why is Britney's parents cooking us dinner like what but yeah Daytona was always fun one yeah yeah he uh yeah Britney Spears' dad I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure uh he goes to Loretta's every year and he has like a hot dog stand or an ice cream stand or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:31

It's something food related like he's he's like a vendor at Loretta's every year. They had like that's extremely random. Yeah um I was gonna say I'm on your website right now looking at your work and you're there's a shot you have a Roxon um where you're shooting him from behind. He just he's just sitting on his bike and you have like the entire grandstands in the in the background with the crowd that one and then you have one of Carrie Hart um like a black and white almost portrait of him in the desert with his two buddies behind him. Those two specifically like really stand out to me like visually they're just they're very simple but very like beautiful all at once if that makes sense yeah thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

Yeah those are I have like one of Roxanne out in the uh I don't know I mean I'm sure I could tell this story now because it's been six years or whatever but um there's one of Roxon where we were shooting at Wyvern Ranch or whatever. I I think maybe it was one of the old like 90s freestyle spots uh and it's up by uh it's like Northern California um oh um uh castillo yeah castillo it's by Solvang yeah but yeah yeah Castillo Ranch yep so we were at Castillo and it was Roxan and uh and his brother in law um Blake Savage and Roxon ends up like we're all shooting first probably 30 minutes that we're there and there's like this jump in the back big step up and Roxan just loops it so hard off of the jump like goes flying through the air bikes comp like far away from him and eats crap and is like not fast to get up and the guy that we're shooting for looks at us and he's like hey everyone delete the footage like this is like a week before A1 or one of the Anaheims and like I think Roxon was like I can't remember what year it was but I want to say he was like um like obviously a title contender and like they didn't want any of this stuff getting leaked out. Well he couldn't end up riding the rest of the day so Blake had to like fill in for him put all the gear on and everything and then like fill in for him and like ride the rest of the day but it was it was crazy.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:14

That was like watching him almost die in front of us out in the middle of the desert I'm like oh gosh but there were some really cool photos from before got hurt he didn't get hurt too bad yes he ended up hurting someone but yeah yeah that's still yeah that's always a scary thing um so at this point for you like client wise who who are some of the clients you've been work you've been working for I know you mentioned Fox and Bell um is there anyone else as well at that time and also kind of how how did those clients come to be um for you?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

Uh yeah I would say like twenty 17, 2018, that time period is when I was like kind of getting out of Supercross-ish. And like 20, I remember like 2018, I started working for Rigid, uh, a light bar company out of Arizona. And they were started by like a couple brothers, and it was a really family kind of oriented business. And they hit me up, started paying me really good. I was doing shoots for them consistently and doing all their magazine stuff and uh or not magazine, uh their catalog stuff. And website, stuff like that, working with the creative director, going into the office, and like I think that was kind of like a changing point of like being a content guy for Supercross. Like, you know, just getting the photos to like working with the team and working with like the creatives that put this company together, and that kind of made me want to like go in that route more than like being at the events, but creating the stuff on the weekdays, like you know, with the team and stuff like that. So I worked with Rigid for probably like four years, like 2017 to like 2021, something like that. I don't know. It was a it was a while, but I uh the you that that kind of took me into the UTV world and which I did a lot of stuff in too. Um so I did like the Vegas Torino and the Mint 400 and San Felipe 250 and all these like different desert races, um, Fort Rigid, and uh that was that was cool. It was fun stuff and definitely learned a lot about like product photography in a sense, so like advertising photography.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:00

Yeah. How um for you how like how is your eye developing in um in terms of competit composition and what you were looking for? And was there anybody um that you were looking to in terms of inspiration that helped kind of further develop your eye um behind the camera?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:27

Yeah, I I mean I was always like with the advertising stuff, I wanted to make it feel as candid and like you know, you're just out there with your buddies and like this this could be your vehicle too, or this could be your like you know, this light bar could be on your truck, and the light bar thing was kind of hard because you would have to do it at night with the light bars on. So there was like a mixture of light painting and like strobes and all of that. And um at this time I was friends, I did a lot of stuff with Austin White, and I remember he told me, like, you're gonna do photography, bro, you gotta buy a pro photo line, like a pro photo light, you gotta go, you gotta invest. And so I had two vehicles at the time. I had a 95 Dodge Cummins, which was like my baby, and I ended up selling that for like eight grand, and I used all that money on camera equipment, and so I basically traded my favorite truck in and bought a pro photo uh light, which I still have use today, and that that definitely changed a lot for me at that time of like what the composition or composition was and like how I wanted to shoot things. I wanted to use lighting, but I wanted to do I wanted it to be natural, and I didn't want it to feel like you were using lighting, but being able to like make something like professional versus just showing up and shooting like natural lit stuff, it kind of taught me how to how to light, and I think once I learned those things of like lighting and composition, that is whenever I started like getting a lot better and getting better jobs and you know, um like even if it's just like like kind of for show in a sense, like you show up to a campaign shoe that someone's flying you in, paying you thousands of dollars, and you're just gonna shoot it with your camera and your lens, like kind of don't look like you know what you're doing, versus like having a bunch of gear and all the flashy stuff, and I don't know. I uh I I really love Drew's stuff, to be honest. Like, I think that was probably at the time, like one of my favorite photographers. Um, he was shooting all the Fox stuff and shooting uh you know, like the Enduro Cross stuff, and I think just the way he one of the hacks that he showed me way back in the day, um, because this is before the screens like tilted and came out of the camera, uh, he had a Canon eyepiece that was like a 90-degree angle, and so you could look down in the eyepiece and and you could get these low shots, but kind of like tilt it up at like a 45 degree angle. And that just like okay with the writing stuff, like you know, if the guy is going through a corner, you're not having to like be on your knees the whole time. You can kind of just like lower down and then look through the eyepiece, and you get a whole different perspective of like you know, the photos turned out way different. And so I remember getting the eyepiece and being like, okay, like it's not the the angle isn't where I'm standing, it's usually a little bit lower, pointed up at the lights, getting some of the atmosphere, you know, the different lighting around and lighting and composition, definitely the biggest thing, and like people ask me still, like, how do I learn how to do photography or how do I get into this? My message usually is go assist someone for six months and learn how they do it. Like, that's you know, you understand all the crap that goes into it that you just don't really see, like you know, the angles and the lighting and the hit like waiting around just for the guy to be ready to go uh take a photo. Like, you know, it's all the extra little things that no one really sees, like you learn that by assisting, and you learn how much work actually goes into a campaign shoot or um you know whatever kind of shoot it is. Like there's usually a little bit more than what you think. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:57

Oh yeah, I was I don't know when it was, a couple weeks ago when I was recording a podcast with someone. Um we were kind of talking along the same lines of that, of like there would be people I would bring on to shoots that were like uh wanted to get exposure and learn and like, yeah, come hop on this thing with me. And some of them would see all the back end work that it takes just to get to the day of the shoot, or like you're on the shooting, you know, they have the wrong goggles or the wrong size set of gear or the wrong color, like all just things that happen. And some of them would be like, Oh yeah, this ain't for me. Like, I'm good, because they don't they only see the final product, they don't see all the pre-production, all the BS that's going in to get the shot, or all the production process, and the trying to get paid, and sometimes not getting paid, or like just all yeah. And I learned it was a g it was a way to like show people like hey, it's not really that glamorous. Like it's really cool what we get to do, and it's I was always very appreciative and thankful for the opportunities, but there's a lot of sacrifice and a lot of headache that goes into it, and it's definitely not for everybody when they see that. Some of them are like, yeah, I'm not gonna do this.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:30

I mean, just like the event photography, getting to the event, driving to all of these events is like crazy. I mean, the amount of shit that I went through trying to get to enduro cross races of like not having money for hotels or not running out of money and not being able to get gas. And it's just like like there's so many like headaches at midnight that no one knows about after the race or the next day where you're just like, oh my gosh. And that was kind of where my burnout came from with the with the event photography, essentially, was like, man, like I I'm spending fifty thousand dollars a year to make fifty-three thousand dollars a year. Like this is crazy. And I uh I I I kind of came to a point um in like 2018-2019 where I'm like, okay, like I have to do like I wanna make this a business, I wanna I want to expand. And by this at this time, I had photographed one band, right? So I had kind of gotten to the music scene. I uh I photographed a a band from Arizona called Midland. They had a song called Drinking Problem, and they brought me in at this is like their peak, like their their late 20s, uh 30s, whatever, early 30s, and they're living like rock stars. So I show up fr I'm like shooting and I remember I did a concert and drove straight from that concert overnight to the Enduro Cross race in like Salt Lake City. I shot a concert in Arizona, drove all night, went to Enduro Cross that weekend in Salt Lake, and I was like, I had so much more fun at this concert. Like, people don't even realize what I just gotta witness and see and like be involved in, I feel like. And that was kind of like where I was like, Alright, I gotta I'm gonna try to try to figure this music thing out, and like you know, this band seems to like me, and I I just kept bugging them and bugging them. Uh they're all pretty successful, like in their own realm in that band. Like, they they all collectively came together to make the band, but did cool stuff before. Like, one of the guys um was a director for Bruno Mars, and he has like three Grammys just for directing videos with Bruno, and his wife is a photographer, and she was like the first person to photograph Bruno, and so I kind of like started learning these stories and learning who they were, and I'm like, dude, this is awesome! Like, I want to freaking be around these people, and um I ended up I saw on a story on Instagram that Harper, the wife, was hiring an assistant, and I was like, Hey, I would love to shoot, and she's like, Oh, like I saw that you've photographed with the boys before, like you're more than welcome to the shoots in Tucson, and and it was for like a men's health magazine or women's health magazine, one some some magazine like that, and she didn't touch her camera, she didn't have to set her own camera up, didn't have to set her own lights up, didn't like she had me as uh I was like a grip, and then there was a guy that was basically Digitech, and so that was my first like like professional photo shoot that I had been a part of where I'm like, oh, this is like a world-famous photographer doing like a $50,000 kind of shoot, you know, like big a big shoot, and yeah, uh like something I guess like that's the thing with assisting is like something clicks, like I every time I meet someone, I'm trying to learn from them or like like understand. I take it all with a grain of salt. There might not be like this person might not be the best in this, like someone might say something, but I'm like trying to get something out of it, right? Like, I don't I don't hold the grudge or anything, and I just show up, do the do the thing, I learned, I saw what I needed to see, and it gave me this like inspo of like okay, I can do this photography thing at a very high level, and it's all my mindset, it's all about what I want it to be. If I want to sit here and drive my life away, going to all these races and get paid $500, like I can do that. There's nothing really separating me versus what this chick is doing for fifty thousand dollars. I'm the one setting her camera up, I know how to do it, and so other than like experience, right, and like networking, and like there's like that's what gets you there is like the time and you gotta pay your dues of it, and so I ended up working with that band for the next like four years, and then in um uh uh they ended up hiring me in 2023 for or yeah, 2023 for a whole tour, and I did that, but I had already moved to Nashville. I moved to Nashville in nine or in 2019, and I got okay. I was I was supposed to do a Kenny Chesney tour and COVID hit, and I was gonna be like on the team uh with Kenny, and I felt like I got shorted out a little bit because of COVID and everything. Like I had moved to Nashville, I was living in my van, I put in the work and I like met a bunch of people, managers and stuff like that. But I was like, I need to like go back because during COVID I came back to Arizona and be with my family and stuff, and then um once COVID kind of like let up and we were able to do stuff, I just went back on the road and uh went to Nashville and started touring, and I've pretty much toured in music f from 2022 at the end of 2022 till the end of last year. Um so it's pretty much been my whole focus has just been like concert photography and going to shows and living on a bus with musicians but yeah, it's funny.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:08

Um how for you um because I uh I would suspect that in some uh some capacity the that lifestyle you're still kind of in this like w event photography type thing, like same as in like doing the endurocross thing. So for you what what are the the differences that that you've experienced from being on that grind of the Endurocross circuit 500 bucks type thing to being in the music industry and being on these tours and um doing what you're doing in that field?

SPEAKER_00 1:21:56

I mean pretty similar I would say, like um, except for it's one person, right? Like you're or maybe I photograph the opener too, but I'm usually only photographing um like one band. So I'm there to get the behind the scenes, all the stuff that goes on through the day, and then um yeah, uh you know, like it's essentially the same thing. The the shows are the same every night, um and you just try to find the things that are different, right? So the venue might change, or like you it's hard in that sense because it's the same thing, and it's like okay, well, how do we make this look different? And how do we show like that put out content every day without it looking the same? Um, and most of that comes from the behind the scenes and like how open is the musician and with me, and what are they gonna let me photograph? If they're only letting me photograph the show, it's probably not gonna be the you know, you're gonna get bored. Like you're gonna have the same stuff delivered to you every single weekend unless you wanna go do stuff with open that door up, open it up to me, and that's like what I love about it is when someone wants me to come in and show what is actually going on. Like, don't be hiding like I went on my first tour in 208 uh 2019, I mean, was this management put me with a guy for like three weekends just before of the Kenny tour, and the guy was hiding beer, like he like he would take a drink and have it sitting by him, and then be like, oh you took a photo and that beer's in the photo, don't use that. And I'm like, dude, I it's the only photo you let me get of you. Maybe don't be drinking if that's not who you are authentically, like you know, if you don't want to show that, then like I get there is a balance of like not showing stuff, but he was like sleeping in the bunk until like three o'clock in the afternoon, and then getting up and then go to sound check, and then the show would start. So I wouldn't have anything of him except for the concert stuff, and it's like that stuff's boring. Like, open the door, allow me access into your life, and let me like show you what I do. I I make it look really cool, but it's hard for certain people to understand that. And then, you know, down the road, I've I've worked with a lot of guys that do get that, and they do understand, like their show is the same, that's what they're striving for. Like, you know, you want to put on a good show and you want it to be consistent every single night, but you know, I gotta take the photographer and we gotta go do something fun, or else like it's gonna be just the same photos every night. So, um yeah, yeah. I I worked for a guy named Jake Owen, and he's uh like he's been in country music for a long time, and Jake is really cool, like he he likes photography. Every morning he would be out like shooting street photography, and like we'd be in Boston or something, and he'd be like walking around with his camera, and um, and then like on the bus bus rides, like he would change like five times, like I don't know what he's doing. He's just trying on different outfits, and he'd like come out and be playing the guitar. It's like those are the moments that you want, and like that, and like the guys hanging with their band on the bus, and like you know, there's a lot of cool moments that happen organically, and that is what makes it fun. It's like basically if you put all of the Endurocross guys in one bus and say, Alright, we're going to the next race, you know, like that that's when the fun stuff's gonna happen. Who cares about what the race is? Like, you want to be on that bus with everyone where the fun stuff is happening. So I would say the big difference is there's a bus and there's a lot of fun stuff that happens.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:14

Um it's funny you bring up Jake Owen because I'm again I'm just like creeping on your website looking at your stuff, and before you had even mentioned uh Jake now, like the some of the photos under your um music archive on your site, some of the photos that uh caught my attention were uh of Jake Owen. Like dude, they're like very beautiful, and you can tell, like I feel like he photographs very well. Um he lets me in. So does he have like a portrait of him sitting? Yeah, I I can I can see it. Yeah, you can tell. Um like you have a photo of him sitting just by himself in a in a looks like a some sort of din diner cafe. Dude, it's again it goes back to like it's there's like simplicity in the image, but it's like so beautiful, and you're like there's a lot for me that like I'm looking at it right now and there's just like it's so simple yet like there's so much to take in, and it just he looks like a fucking badass.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:17

Yeah. I think like when I'm with them, like with the musician, my goal is to get a photo that no one else can recreate. Like, how are you gonna recreate that? You're gonna have to get Jake, you're gonna have to go to some random freaking diner, have him all by himself. Like, it's just it's just probably not gonna happen for another person like that, you know, unless they have the access. And that was like that that photo is one of my favorites too. Like, that day he ended up it we were just in this diner bar ourselves eating before the show, and there's one person in the diner, and they were going to the show, and they were like, Hey, you're Jake, and he was like, Yeah, and then he ended up just sitting. There with them and like talk to them for like 30 minutes before. Like, I was literally like, okay, dude, like, we gotta go. Like, let's go. But you know, that's how he is. Like, he just if he meets someone, like, he wants to take time and sit there and like he he just he's a cool dude like that. So in the those are the moments that are cool, and like really I get gratification from is like, dude, I was in this situation that hardly anyone will be a part of, you know. And it's not like it I don't know, the access part is like always hard to get, and it's just like when you have access to that, like what are you gonna do with it?

SPEAKER_01 1:28:43

Yeah, and you there's an uh um another photo too that I'm looking at of Jake. It's a black and white one. It looks like he's just in his in his probably in his bus or dressing room, maybe, and he's I'm assuming looking at himself in the mirror as he's like buttoning up his shirt. And again, it like so simple, but like such a powerful, for me, like a very powerful image of like what's about to happen.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:07

Yeah. Yeah, I think like those are my uh I think like the similarities between what I learned with Supercross and like taking that into music. Like, you know, I don't the show is cool, but like you like, for example, you're not commenting on my photography from them singing and their shows. It's what's catching your eye are the photos from them just living, and it's like, oh shit, like he's in a normal situation and it looks really cool. And I mean, I have pictures of like Shabuzi and Jelly Roll and all these like like Carrie Underwood and all these different famous people on stage, but for me it they don't move me like a picture of someone maybe less popular in their bus by themselves, doing what they're supposed to be doing, uh, or you know, just living like that to me, that's why I'm there and what I want to photograph. And explaining that to management, it's like it's hard, and like you know, right now everyone wants reels, everyone wants this clickable content. They're not they don't care about these photos that they're gonna look back on in 10 years and be like, damn, like that was a freaking time. Like Jake's gonna look back at those photos forever. I've I've printed out photos for him, I've I've sent him photos like you know, throughout the years of us of what we've made, and like I think that's the stuff that he's gonna remember. He's gonna look back on, and when he's done with his career, he's not gonna go look back at his reels, he's not gonna look back at this video that got 10,000 likes and be like, oh man, that was really fun. Like, it's probably gonna be a photo that brings back a memory or like a feeling. To me, that's my opinion, you know. And it's and it's like photograp photography is just in a weird spot because of that. Like, it's the real photographers are getting pushed to make videos, and it's like it's just a weird, weird place we live in.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:19

Yeah, I know it it it totally is. I want to actually get into that, but I'm gonna pay you another another compliment again as I'm I'm still just looking at your stuff. Like, you have some some of these portraits of uh Tommy Ash as well, and like dude, they they um going back to your point of like you're lighting things, but you don't want it to feel like it's being lit. Like I absolutely see that in like some of these images of Tommy, like they look like paintings. And then I mean that as a compliment, like um there's one of her sitting on a couch holding her guitar and she's just looking right at you, but like lighting looks so natural, like the whole thing to me, like it looks like a painting. Um like those like you were saying, like those are the things when I'm looking through your archive that like are catching my eye. Obviously, your live performance stuff is gorgeous too. Like, even that is like very uh unique and beautifully captured, but these one-on-one intimate moments that you're you're capturing, like you have a very special knack for making these like have feeling and emotion behind it, which is very rare, I feel like, nowadays.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:41

Yeah, thank you. No, it it is like I mean it's it's not something that they want. Like, I mean, even like this last year, I uh I broke my leg last year um in a Harley accident, and I'm like sitting in Nashville just waiting for someone to call me. I'm like hitting people up on Instagram, hey, let's shoot, hey, let's shoot, hey, let's shoot, and it's just crickets. I'm like, what is going on? Like, how do I better promote myself and how do I get these people to understand that like this is going to serve you? Like, you paying $400 or you paying $800, there's a big difference, like, of what photographer you're choosing. Like, if this person might not care about all the little details, and then you know, I think at the end of the day, it really shows when you get a photographer that knows what they're doing. And like in Nashville, it's not something that is really popular there, you know. There's a couple of photographers that are really good, and those photographers are either on a full tour for the like they have their band, and that they that's all they work with, or you have a photographer who's charging fifty thousand dollars to make a music video, or like ten thousand, twenty thousand for a photo shoot, and I'm like, what like if there's like the market's really weird there, like I could barely make a thousand dollars on a photo shoot, and I'm like, what is the difference? Like, why am I not getting these bigger clients, you know? And um, I don't know. I I I I just think it's like where where we are is like, you know, they want someone that's doing video and photo, and they want it to be as cheap as possible. The man, you know, it's the the story old as time of the manager and the artist, like the manager, like the same thing with what happened with Elvis, basically. Like, the manager screwed Elvis out of everything. He didn't, you know, he controlled it, and that's kind of what I see now in the management and artist thing in Nashville is like you have an artist that becomes successful, people love what they're doing, they listen to them, and then they sign a deal and they give all their creative control away. They don't have their own photographer, they are I'm going out to be a photographer because this manager sent me. It's basically like, hey, mom told me to come photograph you, you know, you have to do this because your manager told told you you have to do this, and I wish it was a little bit more like the the artist wants me there, you know, and like when that happens is when I when I get a thrive and get good stuff, like with Jake. Jake chose me, he he's independent, so he he makes his own decisions, and like and it and I felt that going with him versus some people that I went with where I felt like I was a problem, I was bothering them, or oh my god, I have to take another photo again, like like that's you know it's different mindsets with different artists, and you know, I think eventually one day maybe I'll find someone that I click with, and it's uh I I'm not gonna turn down doing the music stuff again, but for the time being, I like moved back to Arizona uh in Oct this last October, and I just kind of took a break. Um, I toured all year long with a guy named Chase Rice, and you know, it it's just a lot of work. It's a lot of the same things, and it is people think it's very glamorous, and the bus life is the road life is rough, dude. Like you lose all your friends and you miss every family function, and just like I just it's weird, like I'm out on the road, like someone contacts me, hey, where you at today? Like, that's the extent of our conversations usually is like, oh, you doing alright? How's your head? And where are you at today? But you know, I I I like the community aspect of like family and friends, and I wanna uh if I'm going out and I'm going on the road, it better be worth it. That's all I'm saying.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:30

Yeah, like oh for sure. I've I've I've talked about it quite a bit on this podcast that um for me there was a lot of things over the sixteen years that I did this that I missed out on from anniversaries and birthdays and holidays and friendships ending because I chose to, you know, go do this project over, you know, spending time with a friend or whatever it may be, and at times being gone for literally thirty days, thirty-two days y at a time. And you know, there was in 2022 I did a project in Florida where I was gone for thirty-one, thirty-two days straight, living out there for the project. Flew home, was home for a day and a half, and then got back on an airplane and went to Texas for another seven days for a total different project. And it was all great money, but like I'm my wife is not like I I don't want to say not stoked, but like she understands, but it's also like, hey, like I miss you. You're not home, like you've been home you've been gone for a month, and now you're only home for a day and you're back on an airplane for another seven days. Like a lot of that stuff that it's just yeah, you miss out on that time and it sucks. And I look back on it now, like I I stopped at the end of 2023 and I'm still a little over two years out, like I don't know what it was all for, you know. Like I I missed a lot of things and I don't know I don't know what I have. I mean I guess I what I have to show for it is a b like a body of work that I'm proud of and it's allowed me an opportunity to do this podcast and have conversations with people like yourself, but it's also like there's so much that goes into it that like I'm still like wrestled with like why did I do that? If that makes any sense.

SPEAKER_00 1:39:35

Yeah, well I'm sitting here with a broken leg thinking the same thing, so I feel you. I mean, like I broke my leg on a shoot for Troy Lee designs, uh riding just a couple months ago riding with Taylor Robert, and uh I mean I love riding, like I I'm I'm it's part of it, I get that, but at the same time, you know, I'm like, was that worth it? Like now I'm crippled up for three months, and uh like I don't know. I mean part of me is like, yeah, I'm I I I'm the same way. I'm very like crucial with how I spend my time, and I think that's just part of getting older, and like you know, when you're in your twenties, you're just trying to make something of yourself, and you're trying to prove to yourself that you can be something, right? And like you can accomplish something, and I think you've accomplished a lot of things, and now you're like, okay, like that's not the important part, is like having accolades. The important part is who you gonna spend your time with, and you know, I'm I'm the same way. Like, I I don't have a wife, but I've had multiple girlfriends throughout the years where I'm like, you know, it's went to crap because if I wanted to do it, I probably would do it, right? And it that's how they look at it, and I'm not doing it, I'm not showing up, I'm not I'm not choosing them, so like it just gets rocky, and um, you know, I think now in my life, like that I I want a relationship, I want something that is a little bit more like planted and like plant some roots and have like a grounding because for the last two years I have been like no grounding, like no routine, no uh it's just you know, where am I going today? What flight am I getting on? What bus am I getting on? Like it's been so chaotic. And uh whenever I came back to Arizona in October, my uh this town Globe that I'm from got really flooded um super bad. Like it hadn't flooded here like that since like the 30s or 40s, maybe 50s, but anyways, long time. And I came here and just kind of volunteered and you know, was around a lot of people I hadn't seen in a really long time, and um just the community part of it. I'm like, dude, I wouldn't trade this for anything. Like, I know I wanted to get out of here so bad, and it's like you don't as a you know, as a young adult, you don't want to be like stuck in your hometown, but now I love my hometown. I love going to the coffee shop and seeing the same faces and like someone knowing my name and like knowing where I'm at, you know. It's like it's just a different mindset. Like I'm 33 now, and I'm like kind of like okay, what's next? Am I like I can do these photo shoots and go out and but I don't have to spend all my time doing this. Like my identity isn't a photographer, and I think in my 20s that was my whole identity was I'm a photographer, and I you know now I want to have something else that creates my identity, like have you know Tanner's a friend or whatever, like something else besides just being a photographer. But yeah, it's uh it's a challenge, and I I reached out to you like whenever you quit, and I'm like, dude, I'm right here with you, man. Like I'm I feel you and I respect like how you came out and you said it, and I was feeling like all the same things as well. It's like it's hard, and it's hard to make your own business work when everything is against you. You know, the government's against you, like they're trying to take all your money, the companies are who's working for me to have this business besides myself? No one.

SPEAKER_01 1:43:53

But yeah, I dude, a hundred percent. Um I uh yeah, I I'm curious what your thoughts are on it. I feel like we might align with this, but I I have shared in the past that my my experience as a filmmaker, creative, whatever you want to call it, it was a very lonely experience. Um because I I do feel like it is like you against everybody else, and you do have like fellow colleagues that at times you're in the trenches with if you're like doing the circuit, you're doing the outdoor circuit or the supercross or whatever it may be, like you do have the faces you see every weekend. Um but it was still like a very lonely experience at times where it's like, oh I come home and I'm just editing at the computer and I'm only communicating to this client via email or text, and all they're doing is there's they're wanting this, they're wanting that, they need this, they need that. There's rarely a thank you. Um and then when I all my stuff with TLD ended and I went to Trader Joe's. I've been there for over two years now, and like the last, I don't know, maybe a month or two ago, my wife mm met met me at work for lunch, and it was like me, my wife, our daughter, and a handful of our um co-workers. We all had lunch together at work, and afterwards my wife texted me and she's like, I've never seen you this happy before. Like you are so happy there, and like she's like, I it's like a different version of you from what you were in your film career. Like you are just like so upbeat and happy and like joking and laughing, and it's like who you actually are, and she's like, It's it's weird to see that version of you because I haven't seen it in so long. And like it was kind of a light bulb moment where I was like, Oh yeah, like I have friends at work and like I don't feel that loneliness anymore, if that makes sense. Like there's a community there, and even yesterday I got off work at three, and me and a coworker went next door after work and we got a drink and just talked. Like it w those weren't experiences I necessarily had in my film career. Um and it's just like another element of why I'm very appreciative and thankful to be where I'm at now with this career, even though it's a grocery store. Like I I love the company, I love what the values are about and how they conduct business, and the people I work with are they're incredible.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:26

Yeah. Yeah, no, I I mean I think that's what I'm trying to figure out and like where I'm trying to get to as well, because yeah, the last the last two years have definitely beat me down. Um like I've broke my leg twice in two years, so it's uh that like you know, just other crazy life situations have happened and um like living in Nashville for me, I moved out there not knowing anybody. The only person I knew was that Tommy Ash person that you brought up. We're you know, okay, her and her I knew her and her husband from Arizona, they moved back there. He he got a job at Fender, and they were like, Hey, you should come out here, and like, you know, they got me a couple shoots with Fender and stuff like that. But other than that, I didn't know anybody, like I had no family, no friends, and I felt this amount of like loneliness for three or four years that I like was just I I I don't know like it's all been so new at the time. I was like, this is just me trying to do this and like make this and I have to I have to do this, this, and this, like to get that happiness. But I don't think that that it should be like that. I think um I think I'm lucky to have a support group in Arizona and like friends and like you know family here this is my favorite place that I've ever been. Like er, you know, the more I travel, Arizona is where I want to come. Like I freaking love it here. I love adventuring. I take my truck and go camping in the woods, and like that makes me happy. Like going out and just like being in nature. In in Nashville, there's not really a ton of nature, there's not these things that like make me happy. So I had to like look at the checklist and be like, okay, what what am I doing out here? Like, I'm working for these people, but why? I'm just making them more famous, I'm making them more money, I'm bringing you know, and like most of them don't even care that I'm there. Like, uh, I had like I had this uh ex-girlfriend pass away in like a traumatic plane accident this last year. Not a single person on the bus tried to hang out with me the day that it happened. Every single one of them knew who it was. Um the girl's dad is a famous songwriter, and he died too. It was like her, it was like my ex-girlfriend, her stepdad, and her mom all died in a plane, and the dad wrote Jesus Take the Wheel, which is kind of like a this ironic thing. But um so everyone knew on the bus who her stepdad was, right? And like knew they're all talking about it around me. Oh, did you see that he died in a plane crash? And I'm like, hey guys, like can you guys like not like make make fun of this? Like, this is like a situation that I'm really close to. I know them very well, and all of them just laughed at me and like they fucking made a joke of it, and then for then then the next day, like it comes out that my ex was in the plane, and they all like no one reached out to me. We had a day off, no one tried. Tried to do anything with me, no one tried to talk to me. I'm like, I'm with 15 people on a bus. We had a hotel that day, so we weren't all like on the same bus. Um, but literally no one tried to hang out with me, and I'm like, all I need is like one person to give a shit, and I would probably like stay here for a long time. And I just I'm like, why am I doing this? Like, you guys don't care about me, you don't care about my well-being or anything like that. So why am I gonna waste my time with you? Like, that's not what I'm here for. Like, and you know, once like I just I quit that and moved back to Arizona, and I've just been like much happier here. Like, I get to see my friends and my family, and one of my best friends is paralyzed from dirt bikes. His name's Chase Bradshaw, so I'm kind of like a caretaker. I do as much as I can with him, you know. Um just like that, like one thing for my friend Chase is like more like it brings more appreciation from him, and he thanks me more than I got thanked all year last year being on that tour. Like, I mean, I and to me that that's what matters the most to me is like I've I'm not doing it to self-gratify like gratify myself, I'm doing it because he appreciates it. And like I if I was in his shoes and like couldn't walk, I would freaking want someone there for me the same way that I'm trying to show up for him, you know? And like that's yeah, to me that's like what is important to me is like if you're gonna show up for me, if you don't show up for me, well I don't expect it, but it would be nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:48

It would be nice to have a thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:51

Uh a hundred percent. I I feel that I um first of all, I I'm sorry to hear about that accident. Um that's fucking terrible, and I'm sorry that no one showed up to support you in that. That's ludicrous to me. Um the the thank you thing it's I remember when I first when I first started at Trader Joe's and like the man so like the structure there, it's crew members, which is what I am, and then you have your store managers, which are called mates, and then you have a general manager, which is your store captain. So you have like however many crew, usually like between twelve to fourteen mates, and then one store captain. But I remember like the store mates like coming up to me and saying, like, hey, thank you, like you did a great job today. Like, hey, you kicked ass. Thank you for your hard work. And I just remember just being like, so like as simple as it is, and you wouldn't think anything of it, for me, I was very caught off guard. I was like, I don't remember the last time I've heard that in my career. And it at the very least it feels genuine, like because I can tell that they appreciate me showing up, doing the best I can do, and like taking pride in my work. And even still, like two plus years in, I have uh mates that are like one of them's become like a really close friend of mine and he he's like, Hey, proud of you today. Like you kicked ass, like good job. And like man, like I don't know that they realize how much that means to me and like how far that goes, you know. Like a just a simple like hey, thank you. You did like good job. Like I there's no like words for me to explain what that means coming from 16 years of like kind of like you were saying, you're just making stuff for somebody else to make them more money while they're trying to figure out how they can fuck your day rate and and get more out of you and try to figure out how to pay you less.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:04

Yeah, I think my hope is that you know there will be people or some like my goal here in Arizona is to find three to five clients that pay me monthly, um, and that I enjoy being around. And I've already found three of those people, like in a month of me being here. Not to say that that might be a forever thing, but it shows me that it's possible, and I would rather work for a small business or like you know, like there's a difference between working for a Fortune 500 company and working for a small business. With the Fortune 500 company, you're not going to that person's family dinners, like you're not going to like functions like that, like you know your role, and it's just to do what you're told. And then, you know, I could go shoot for a pool cleaning company business here, and the I'm I'm making this guy way more money than he's ever made before, maybe on social, and like he appreciates it in a way different value than like a Fortune 500 company and me making them money, like so I I think going back to the drawing board, like you know, I have different like I've I've made a different website um where I'm focusing more on like the business photography. So I'll have like a portfolio for not my portraiture stuff, like I'll keep my my website for all of that, like music and portraits and advertising campaigns, but then having a website that's specific just to you know me helping businesses grow in like social media management and photography and video, but trying to develop like tell their story, right? Because that's what I enjoy doing is telling their story and how what they do and capturing their employees, taking pride in what they're doing. Like I want to work for companies that like Trader Joe's, right, that are proud of like you're proud to work there. And I I if like the pride thing goes hu it's goes miles. Like if you can tell as soon as you go onto a job site, like are these people proud to work here or are they not proud to work here, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:56:24

Yeah, yeah, uh 100%. Um what's uh the this other website, is it live or is it something you're still building right now?

SPEAKER_00 1:56:37

Uh no, it's it's not live. I could send you what I'll send you it whenever we get off. But um it'll be like on my Instagram and stuff. Uh like it's in my bio and I'll I'll like this is just the last like two, three weeks I've really been working on the website, and like I've kind of had this idea of like I need to separate um some of my stuff. Of like I think working with celebrities um kind of puts you in this weird bracket of being untouchable or like un like like if you owned your own business and you saw my Instagram or you saw my website, you would probably think I don't have money to afford that guy, which in reality I'm doing stuff for like a thousand dollars. Like it's not but I think that's kind of what's been hurting my business. Where now if you go to this website, you can see like, oh, okay, like he works with businesses just like mine, you know, and he works with big businesses and they trust him, but he also works with smaller businesses too. So I think my goal is to kind of show showcase that because I've worked so hard at shooting big name people because that's usually who's been paying me the most. Like in music, like the person on a on a label usually will pay more than like an independent artist. So I'm trying to find a big name person to go shoot, but I feel like it's also kind of hurting my business when I do that. So it's been a weird thing to like balance, you know, and even like shooting Carrie Hart. Like, I remember I was posting a bunch of that, and it's like, oh well, you shoot Carrie now, like you won't come shoot our senior photos or our family photos, and I'm like, okay, like sure, just let me know when. Like, I don't know. Some people think I'm way busier than I am, I think. I'm like over here just twiddling my thumbs most of the time, but I like being busy.

SPEAKER_01 1:58:44

Yeah, it's such a good point, like all of that. And I when I was trying to do more like scripted narrative LA type stuff, a lot of that work that I was doing was like really cheap. Like I'm getting paid a couple hundred bucks a day, m at most m at most maybe six hundred bucks a day, but usually less than, um, or sometimes even free. And I remember there was one director that I he had posted something on uh one of the websites I would always like cruise on to try to find that type of work. And he had a short film that he was trying to get done, and he needed a DP, and I reached out, and I think it was literally like a free project, but like I was intrigued, and I reached out and we ended up having a meeting, and he told me he's like, dude, I almost wasn't going to email you or like follow up because I looked at your work and your website and the clients that you've worked for and the people you've worked for, and he's all there's no way I you would want to do this. He's like, so I almost just skipped over you because there's there's just no way that you would want to do this, and I'm like, no, dude, like I was intrigued by the description of the project. You sent me the script, the script was great. Like, I I'm happy to go do this for free. I don't care, like I just want opportunity and I want to do something cool with someone that is passionate about creating something that is meaningful to them, and like let's work together. Like, I'm all in. And we shot this short film literally for free. I put some of my own money into it at the time and got a small crew on board, and for literally a no-money short film, I was very proud of how it came out. Like we were all on the same page. Um and I was always like very thankful that he reached out and like followed up. But it is interesting to hear you say that because I'm like, oh yeah, that that's a thing. Like, people don't think that they can afford you, but the reality is you and I are like, nah, dude, if I think it's like something cool and you seem like a good human, like fuck yeah, let's go do it. Let's go make something cool.

SPEAKER_00 2:00:50

Yeah. Yeah, it's it's uh it is a weird thing. I don't know. It's definitely something that I'm like trying to understand and like get my head around too. But um I I when I was in Endurocrust, I remember like uh we were up in Seattle, and I ran across this Instagram guy. His name is Andrew Kearns, and he used to have like he was big on Instagram at the time and had like hundreds of thousands of followers, and we s I saw him in a coffee shop and I had followed him or whatever, and I like walked up. I'm like, Hey, are you Andrew? and he started asking me about what I do and like how I make money doing photography. I'm like, Well, I'm touring with this this race series, and I get paid by brands to like shoot photos for each brand for their like weekly updates or their Instagram and all this stuff, and he was like, dude, I would honestly trade like everything for that because I cannot make money. He's like, I might get one of my landscape photos licensed for like $20,000 once a year if I'm lucky. And then he was like, or a brand will hit me up to do a thing for five hundred dollars. Uh, but he was like, even with all he had like five hundred plus thousand Instagram followers, and he was just like, I can't make money doing this, you know? And I it's just like I think now it's still kind of the same way with the influencer thing. It's like it's hard to separate being an influencer and like being a person that's actually creating stuff. Like when I email a or pitch a brand and I'm like, hey, this is what I could do for you, their response is usually we have an in-house guy, or we're just not looking for anything like that. Some you know, that's kind of the thing. And I'm like, I don't like what I'm trying to like make something with your product, I don't want to like influence your product in that or that'll be like where they try to push me, like, hey, if you you know sell a certain amount of these things, you'll get a percentage. And I'm like, no, no, I don't want to do the influencing thing, I want to do an advertising campaign, like a real one with real money, and actually turn in real profit or real results for you. Like, that's that's my goal, but it is uh it's strange. And I think, you know, finding out like what these companies are like, what their intentions are right off the bat, like what their expectations are right off the bat is like pretty pretty like my main goal is like okay, well, does this person want one shoot or does this person like want me to be with them for a long time? And I feel like I'm down for either one and I'm open to either one, but I'm definitely looking for companies that like want to work with me consistently. And by doing that, you obviously have to crush the first one and put in that extra time. But when they see how hard I work on it, they're usually like, okay, like we don't want anyone else, and they keep choosing me, but the initial getting them part is always a little challenging.

SPEAKER_01 2:04:06

Oh yeah, a hundred percent it is. Um who are um I have you like toot your own horn a little bit. Who are some of the brands and companies that you've worked for over the years?

SPEAKER_00 2:04:19

Um, Red Bull's been like that one was a big one that I wanted for a long time, and uh my first job with Red Bull was photographing. I got a I got an email and I thought it was fake, and it was like someone at Red Bull, and I looked at the email and I see that it's like at Red Bull.com or whatever. I'm like, okay, like this is legit. They wanted me to photograph these two college girls that had created an app for um and they were like in this this deal that Red Bull was putting on, and it's like um they had to compete against all the people in their region, and then like all the pe and it's like a a shark tank kind of situation, and they uh they end up doing so they're from ASU, Arizona State, and then they ended up going and competing against everyone in the United States, and their idea won for all the United States people. So then they had me photograph them, and they were getting ready to go to Turkey and compete against all of the people in the uh world, like someone from each country goes and competes or whatever, and then they ended up winning that. So they beat everyone in this whole Red Bull um uh deal, and yeah, that I don't know, my photos like went everywhere from that thing, like for like them writing all these different people writing articles on these two girls, and then that kind of got me in with the Red Bull, and then I was able to do um like a F1 show run event in Nashville where like Daniel Ricardo was there, um, and then I did like some UTV stuff with them, but uh I know you also like have done stuff with them. That was always kind of like one that I was focused on trying to like add to the client list. Um then last year for the I think it was the year before, I shot for Disney, and like Disney randomly emailed me asking uh to for me to photograph uh Country Music Award Festival, which is basically the biggest thing in Nashville. Um all week long, all the artists play and all that, and so they had me shooting like the stadium shows every night, and it's like all the biggest country stars, and I was like one out of like three people that had this credential to go do whatever I wanted to, and I was like backstage with everyone, and that was pretty cool. Like Disney, I never think I'd ever had Disney and ABC and like um but yeah, I've like uh Kyle I worked for Kyle Bush, so that was the NASCAR guy I worked for, and I every time I tell people that I worked for him, they usually know who he is, and they have their own opinions about it, but that was really fun. Um, I ran like his Instagram and his did all his photos, stuff, video stuff, and uh his sons, who's like his son is like nine, his name's Brexton. He is racing as well, and he'll be like a future NASCAR champion. He's super good. Um and I did like the he had a truck team, and I ran their Instagram, and I ran the wife's Instagram, like I was doing like five different things for them, and it was just like every week was crazy. We were flying private three times a week. Uh he had a $40 million jet, thirty fifteen million dollar home, and I was getting paid uh like literally nothing compared to what all that is. Like, I was just like, uh, this is crazy. Like, I can't even afford my freaking apartment in North Carolina right now. I moved for this job from Nashville to North Carolina, and I wasn't even able to like afford $2,000 a month. Like, it was crazy. So I ended up not doing NASCAR for a long time. But everyone in NASCAR, just so if any photographers listening, if you have a desire to go shoot for NASCAR, a NASCAR team will probably only pay you fifty thousand dollars or less to be a photographer for them, and you're gone from February till November, so it's a pretty rough schedule.

SPEAKER_01 2:08:51

Like to me, that's a hundred thousand dollar job, but oh easy, easily, easily. That's well, dude. That's I got offered I was wondering.

SPEAKER_00 2:09:04

Uh I got offered to go to the biggest team in NASCAR, and I would have had four drivers that I photographed every weekend, fifty thousand dollars. You know, creating you're at the track all day long, like anything that's going on, like award signings, like or um uh like fan signings and like all these different appearances. You have to be at the bus at this exact time. If you're not there, someone's gonna get pissed and you're gonna get fired, and it's just like all of this for 50 grand. Like, no thanks. I'm I'm good. I'll I'll go back to Arizona and I'll live in my van and make thirty thousand dollars and be much happier. It's kind of just like what do I want to do with my time? And I mean, I I I love the racing, and the racing is in my blood. Like, I freaking know every single thing about NASCAR right now. You could ask me any driver, any I know all the drama, I know all the things of what goes into the racing. Like, there's so much knowledge, and I didn't know any of that before. I didn't I was not into NASCAR, I did not watch NASCAR, but I went and I learned it all and I picked it up fast. I know about racing, I know about qualifying and heats and all that stuff. So it was like, okay, like I get it, I get how this this is uh how it goes down, but it's like what is all this knowledge even getting me? Like it's not I don't feel like it's really pushing me forward if they're not willing to pay, like they're not willing to show their appreciation for how much I'm putting into this, like, and you know, I yeah, I don't know. It's uh it's a rough spot to be in because like your whole life revolves around it. If my whole life is gonna revolve around something, I don't want to do it for less than a hundred grand. Like it it if it's gonna take all my time it's like fresh water okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:12

We can put some fresh water in there. Um we're almost done, okay, Bubby? Um yeah, I I totally agree. That's a that's a minimum hundred thousand dollar job. But that that's fifty thousand dollars is not nearly enough for what the ask is in the workload. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:11:32

I haven't I have NDAs with people, so I don't even know what I can say or what I can't say. Everyone loves to get the photographer to sign an NDA. Yeah, I've had to sign a a few of those over the years, and I'm just like, okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:11:44

Like sure. And then anyways, like what whatever you sign, it it What was that?

SPEAKER_00 2:11:52

I said, Oh, so you can cuss me out and I can't say anything afterwards about you treating me like crap? Like what? Okay. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:02

Yeah, exact exactly.

SPEAKER_02 2:12:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:12:06

Um so um for you now, like where you're at, you're back home. I think you've already kind of touched on it, but your kind of goal now moving forward is to try to have like three to five clients at home and um just focus focus on that type of work.

SPEAKER_00 2:12:30

Yeah. Yeah, I'm uh rehabbing a broken leg. I broke my tibia. So again, um on my other leg. So I've had these broken legs. Um my goal is to not break any more bones for a while. Um and get to walk again soon. And um, I'm grateful for my health, and I think you know, whenever you go through something like this, it really shows you like how important your health is. Um I'm right now I'm reliant on my father to basically do everything for me, and that sucks. I hate having anyone have having to ask anyone for help or you know, hey, can you make me food? Like, I you know, it just sucks. I have a cast all the way up my leg, uh above my knees, so I'm pretty mu like can't really do much. And I think, you know, my goal this year is to like find things that make me happy and find like a group of people that I can invest in and they'll invest their time back into me. Um working wise and like you know, just having friends and stuff like that again. I've spent the last three years avoiding all of that, and like I mean I had made friends in Nashville and stuff, but um, it's just hard when you're on the road. Like it's I've spent I've I've done all 50 states in the last two years. Um so like literally I don't even know how many shows I was photographing probably 80 plus concerts a year for the last like four years. So yeah, it's it's a lot. Like they're like, what is it for? And I I don't know either. I don't know why. I don't know if these photos will ever make uh you know make sense of it for me, but I think down the line, you know, people tell me this that I've done cool things, and like down the road I'll be able to look back on it and be able to like be excited about all the stuff that I've done. And you know, I guess we'll see.

SPEAKER_01 2:15:02

Yeah, no, I I I feel that very much. Um I think so I'm gonna ask throw out a couple things that I ask everyone at the end of these, but uh I think we should do a part two because there's some more stuff I'd love to like pick your brain about. Um I don't want to let the kiddo run around much longer solo. She'll start having a meltdown. Um we might already What's wrong, Bubby?

SPEAKER_00 2:15:30

Yeah, we can get into some of the nitty-gritty stuff on part two of uh you know I I'm I'm an open book. I'm being very truthful with some of the conversational stuff of like, you know, I know a lot of things and you know a lot of things, and not that where either of us are trying to out anybody, but I think that lessons that we've learned that are probably valuable to people that might listen or want to know about these industries and photography in general is like, you know, how do you like how are these things and what makes these things like actually uh so difficult? Because how many times have you not heard about pricing or you haven't like no one wants to talk about certain things like that, you know? Like how how do I actually make a living doing this? How do I make a living um like supporting myself when everyone's trying to tear it down?

SPEAKER_01 2:16:30

Yeah, dude. I uh absolutely, especially nowadays, which is the way things are going, like we were talking about earlier with like the influencer culture and now the way I AI is going, it's like to me very scary, and I'm hoping at some point there's like a things do a 180, and we start to realize that like the best type of art that is made is through that of the actual individual in the artist, not this computer generated bullshit, and just because you have the technology doesn't mean that it should be used. Um so I that whole kind of landscape is scary to me. Um and then even like there's a music photographer that I follow, and kind of to your point, like he his work is gorgeous, but it's also turned into like he's mounting little GoPros to his stills camera to like generate additional content of like BTS and this and that. And it's like for me, like no, like I've I'm being hired there to be a photographer or a uh cinematographer, like that's my job. I'm not there to do an another sterson's job that you're refusing to do because well, you know, I saw so-and-so, he's doing this, and so like why can't you just do two things at once? And like, well, because then the the the project gets sacrificed, you're not getting the best of like what it this could be, you know.

SPEAKER_00 2:18:06

Yeah, it's interesting. I uh yeah, I feel the same way. I mean, I I I'm more open to doing video nowadays, like I I get it, and I'm I've gotten better. I've applied thousands of hours of editing and you know, shooting that I can do it now, but it's still like I would it's one or the other, dude. You can't you can't expect world-class photography and world class video at the same time by the same person. Like it's two parts of two different brain for me. It's like, okay, am I directing or am I shooting photos? But you know, and uh now it's like if you don't make the reels and you don't make the photos and you don't post on the story five times a night, then we don't want you. Like, you know, the amount of meetings I had in Nashville were like when I first got there, no one wanted to hire me until I started saying I was doing video. Oh, do you do video? And then I just started saying yes. I'm like, yeah, I do video, and then I would try to talk them into like hey, like, let's do photo heavy, and then I'll give you a 30-second video, and like having that conversation is like pulling teeth, basically. It's like they don't get why. And I'm like, you have a photographer, I'm more of a photographer than I am a videographer, but I can do both, so why don't you take my strong suit, run with that, and I'll add a little bit on the top. But it's hard, man. It's hard to manage both of them, and I uh you know, I think having your own business, like what I'm trying to do with like going and helping people, I'm in control of what I'm pitching, I'm in control of what the deal is and what the contract says and what I'm offering, so the expectations don't get confusing. I'm not being like, hey, I'll do all your stuff for blah blah blah. I'm gonna do your photos, or I'm gonna do your video, or here's a package for A and B, and then I'll hire a video guy to come in with me, you know. But that to me, it's like that is the only thing that really makes sense right now, but who knows? Yeah, no, I I don't disagree with you. Um okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:29

Let me I'm gonna fire off just a handful of quick questions that I ask everybody at the end. Um kind of put you on the spot a little bit. Um first thing, do you see yourself as a realist, optimist, or pessimist?

SPEAKER_00 2:20:43

Realist. I'm a little negative sometimes. Yeah. I know.

SPEAKER_01 2:20:49

It's easy.

SPEAKER_00 2:20:52

I try to be optimistic, but uh I try to be optimistic, but I'm also I think I have been jaded by a lot of things where it's hard for me to go in fully optimistic, like, yeah, this is gonna be great.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:08

Yeah, yeah. Uh yeah. Uh guilty pleasure. Like for me, it's Taco Bell and reality television.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:18

Yeah, I I like Taco Bell. Uh right now I can't stop eating the um the high chews, those are really good. Um coffee. I drink way too much coffee. And since I have broken my leg, I play way too much Grand Theft Auto.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:38

Oh, yes. Dude, I I uh Yeah, big GTA fan. I'm on my my second playthrough of Red Dead Redemption 2. I don't know if you haven't played that, I highly recommend. That game is unreal.

SPEAKER_00 2:21:54

Yeah, that one's fun too.

SPEAKER_01 2:21:56

Yeah, it's the only video game I've ever played where I'm like at the end of it crying. I'm like, what is wrong with me? Why am I crying playing a video game? But that story was like it's a very beautiful story.

SPEAKER_00 2:22:09

Yeah. I like video games. I've always been a you know, in a small town, there's not much to do. So like growing up, I did every Call of Duty. I did like 10th prestige on all of them. Like, I've just always been into video games. Girlfriends don't usually like video games, but whatever. Yes. Would you rather me be at the bar?

SPEAKER_01 2:22:31

Yeah. The bar or video games. Um and then um music-wise, like what do you what are you into at the moment? Like what's kind of your go-to right now?

SPEAKER_00 2:22:44

Ella Langley. Okay. Uh I I like country uh and rock, like southern rock. Um I like rap a little bit, but lately it's not been my favorite. I don't know. I like I know most of the country artists now, so it's kind of hard for me to like listen to like country music radio. I don't really love country music radio, but I have like low-key country artists that you know I I enjoy, so yeah. I also like play the guitar a little bit and write. Oh, really? I've wrote probably like a hundred of my own songs, so that's been something I've been trying to do more of is like writing and yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:23:33

Okay, that's badass. What kind of guitar do you have?

SPEAKER_00 2:23:37

Um, I have a few. I have like uh some Taylor's, uh I have a custom one that this guy gave me. He hit me up and was like, Hey, if I make you this guitar, would you shoot photos of it and we can trade off? I'm like, Yeah, sure. And I go to his website and the guitar I want is seven thousand five hundred dollars. So I send it to him. I'm like, How about this one? And he was like, Yeah, sure, no problem. I'm like, oh shit, okay. So he sent me like an $8,000 guitar, custom paint made for me. Um, that one is uh it's called a Baldacci B-A-L-D-A-C-C-I, but they're uh Wyoming and Arizona based, super cool company, and then I have a fender.

SPEAKER_01 2:24:27

Okay, nice dude. That's awesome. Um, and then last thing, uh, if you could have dinner with three people dead or alive, who would they be? Damn.

SPEAKER_00 2:24:40

Uh my first one that comes to mind is Miley. Definitely big Miley Cyrus fan. Um okay. Uh let's see. Um dang, that's hard one. Uh let's go with Geronimo. I'm related to Geronimo. So I would like to pick Yeah, I would like to pick his brain. Um and then uh who's someone smart? I feel like I should pick someone smart because I probably need a little bit more intelligence. Uh dang. The last one I have to say would be dude, I don't know. I'm blanking this one. Um let's go Abe Lincoln. Ooh, okay.

SPEAKER_01 2:25:49

Okay. But I have a uh what would you think of this country right now? Like, what would you do differently? Oh my god. Yeah, could you imagine if I could be like, ah, I'm just gonna go back to being dead. Good luck. Miley. Miley, Geronimo, and Abe Lincoln. I like that. That's that's good, that's diverse. Um I have a president uh for mine too, which would be JFK. I think that would be yeah, interesting. I have a friend of mine that we've always talked about that. Like, would the country be where it's at today? Like, would we be better, same, or worse today if JFK was never assassinated? And we've we've had some very uh deep conversations about that topic. That's like it's obviously a whole rabbit hole you can go down, but it's it's an interesting one. Um yeah, I have JFK, Walt Disney, and then my la third one always like switches out. So sometimes it's like Jenny Taft who used to do the sideline reporting for Supercross. Sometimes it's Adam Sincerrillo, Tom DeLong from Blink. I guess it's kind of interchangeable.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:00

Tom DeLong would be cool. I feel like Tom DeLong would be Adam's too. Like Adam would want to sit with Tom DeLong the most.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:11

Oh, yeah, the two of them together. Oh my god. That would that would be like an epic podcast. Just me, Tom, and AC together. I don't think that'd be wild.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:22

It'll happen, don't worry.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:24

I'll try to get Adam on the podcast. That's a goal. And then I have a plan to reach out to Tom this year to see if I can get him on. So we'll see. Fingers crossed.

SPEAKER_00 2:27:36

Heck yeah. Well, I'll I'll if I see him or if I run across him, I'll send him uh your info.

SPEAKER_01 2:27:43

Yeah, yeah, let him know. I mean I technically have his phone number, so I could like go that route, but I have a I have a plan in place. So um, didn't you used to like Angels and Airwaves? I feel like you did like a video Okay. I yeah, I just yeah I worked with Tom in 2019. We did a project together, um, this like small documentary just about it was essentially about like his passion for riding motorcycles because he's got three three motorcycles. Um so that was like the end to doing the project, and then it was also about like Blink, Angels and Airwaves, his company to the stars and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 2:28:24

So if he asked you to come back and do a video project for a whole year, would you?

SPEAKER_01 2:28:31

Um that's a great question, and I am still at the point in my life where I would say no. Like I I'm hear that, Tom? Yeah, I'll work with you. Yeah, yeah, it ain't happening, Tom, so don't ask me. Yeah, I'm still like yeah. I still don't have like I haven't touched a camera in over two years, and I'm still like just because I know what comes with it, you know. And even if it was something like that, like that would be a really bad experience, but that's also like time away from my wife and my kiddo, and I've already gone through that and I don't really care to to do that again, you know. Um so I it yeah. I like doing the podcast. This is like my creative outlet. I get a lot out of it, and for me, a little bit more freedom than being behind the camera. So yeah. Right now, yeah, sorry Tom, I'm not gonna work with you.

SPEAKER_00 2:29:30

Maybe next year.

SPEAKER_01 2:29:31

Yeah, maybe next year. Try again in one year. Um sweet dude, this was really good. This is a fucking really good one. So thanks for taking the time. Yeah, I know, like I said, I know we've been trying to make this happen for a while, so I'm stoked it finally worked out. Um and yeah, let's for sure. I want to do a part two because I think there's a lot more to to talk about and share, and like you said, just to like share your experience even more to maybe help that up-and-comer that's listening that can then navigate this world a little bit easier and be a little bit more informed with the decisions that they're making.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:10

Yeah. Oh man, it would be great. You should uh I I would like to hear you uh do you know who Taylor Robert is?

SPEAKER_01 2:30:19

Yeah, yeah, I know who he is. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:30:22

He'd be a good one to have on the pod. I'll I'll uh I'll send him a few.

SPEAKER_01 2:30:28

Yeah, because you're you're pretty you're close with him, aren't you?

SPEAKER_00 2:30:32

Yeah, that's who I was with when I was when I broke my leg. He carried or he rode me out of the desert. Um he's a great guy. But yeah, he he has a crazy story, and uh, you know, I think what he's gone through is like he would be one of my first guests I would if I had a podcast, just because he's like been cut open in half, basically, on a dirt bike and had his organs exposed and put in a bag and like he's he's had a very, very rough go at the dirt bike world and is one of the best to ever do it. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:31:08

I would love to yeah, if you're down, if you want to reach out to him, um I'd absolutely love to. Like I'm so down, that'd be rad. Because I he's someone I don't know that him and I ever work together, but I've always like obviously know who he is and um and whatnot. So I yeah, if you want to reach out and he's down, I'd I'm all for it. Let's do it. Sweet. Well, thanks for having me, man. It was fun. I enjoyed it. Yeah, yeah, of course, dude. Um the plan is to I'm trying to stack like eight to ten episodes, so I have like a solid batch just done that I can you know, gives covers covers me for you know roughly ten weeks, because I try to release them once a week. So you are the fifth one I have recorded, and I have I think at least three more scheduled. So plan is to try to release this next batch like either end of this month or in April. Um so once I get a little bit closer to that, I'll pitch up again um just to get some assets from you to build out reels for Instagram and whatnot.

SPEAKER_00 2:32:17

Yep, definitely.

SPEAKER_01 2:32:18

So if you need to cool, thanks, dude. Um let me hit stop.